Showing 121 results

One tape

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/2/ [15728]

Biographical Information: Myron R. Allen (December 23, 1901-May 12, 1993), was born in Pine County, Minnesota. He lived in Pine City early in life. After attending the University of Minnesota in 1927, he settled in Aitkin, Minnesota. His wife was Edna May Allen. Allen served on the board of directors of the R.P. Allen Company, the General Minnesota Utilities Company and Minnesota Investors Corporations. His father, Reuben P. Allen, was the pioneer who formed the R.P. Allen Company.

Transcript Summary: In an interview conducted on July 18, 1975, Allen discussed the history of Eastern Minnesota Power Company, General Minnesota Utilities, and R. P. Allen Company that served Minnesota farms and the general development of electrical power in Central Minnesota. Allen was formerly associated with these power companies and several other affiliated firms. All of the firms were engaged in the construction, financing, and operation of electric power lines and service in a wide area of east and north central Minnesota. The interview primarily concerned the operation financing of the companies, with comments regarding the Allen family, local history, and the effect of the Depression on the electric utilities generally.

Interviewed by James Fogerty

Two 60 minute audio cassettes

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/26/ [16063]

Biographical Information: Clifton Beaulieu was born on April 13, 1909, in Browns Valley, Minnesota. He spent most of his youth in Browns Valley before moving to St. Cloud with his family after high school graduation. Clifton originally attended St. Cloud State to teach, but thereafter switched to business school. He ultimately worked as a musician following his graduation, starting around the Great Depression in 1929. Aside from his vocational pursuits, Clifton also found time to start a family with his wife Evelyn who he married on July 4, 1942. They had two sons and two daughters. Clifton passed away on October 30,1979.

Transcript Summary: In an interview conducted on June 26, 1979, Clifton Beaulieu recounted his personal and professional life, including his experiences with major historical events like the Great Depression and the Prohibition era. Beaulieu noted that he was originally born in Browns Valley, Minnesota in 1909, but eventually moved with his family to St. Cloud after graduating from high school in his hometown. Here he graduated from St. Cloud State and worked as a musician. Beaulieu affirmed that life during the Depression was never easy, but that he generally made enough to get by as a musician, while his economic fortunes gradually improved with the end of Prohibition in 1933. Aside from his career as a musician, Beaulieu also noted that he briefly served in the U.S. Army between 1942 and 1944 (albeit without seeing combat overseas), and that after the war, he helped manage the Fairgrounds Ballroom in St. Cloud until 1950. Aside from his work, Beaulieu also elaborated a bit upon his family life, discussing his marriage to his wife Evelyn in 1942, and the couple’s four children.

Interview conducted by John LeDoux and Al Nielsen

One tape

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/3/ [13653]

Biographical Information: Angeline Mesenburg Beaver (August 13, 1907-April 15, 1984) was a lifelong resident of St. Cloud. She married Lynwood Beaver in 1934 - he passed away in 1975. She was active in St. John’s Episcopal Church and a member of St. Anne’s Altar Guild, American Red Cross, 20th Century Club and Stearns County Historical Society. In 1927, Beaver graduated from St. Cloud State University. Both are buried together in St. Cloud’s North Star cemetery.

Transcript Summary: Beaver described her family history in St. Cloud, particularly on the Southeast side. That family history included her husband who worked for Holes-Webway for 46 years, as well as her father Frank who was from Luxembourg and her mother Mary Rau who was from Canada. Her father worked at the St. Cloud Reformatory, while her mother attended St. Cloud State and taught afterwards. Beaver also went to St. Cloud State’s lab school and post-secondary program and taught in girls’ schools in Benton County, Popple Creek, Albany and St. Cloud. More generally, Beaver discussed and reflected on how the town of St. Cloud, especially the east side of the city, changed drastically and grew its population in the following years. She mentioned shopping and stores in downtown St. Cloud and attending the St. John’s Episcopal Church. In addition, Beaver chronicled her husband Lynwood’s career at Holes-Webway, including its many locations in the St. Cloud area. She also touched on his service during World War II as well as her own volunteer service to help the war effort.

Interviewed by Cal Cower and John LeDoux

One 60 minute audio cassette

Biographical Information: At the time of this interview, Linda Bellows was an attorney in Hennepin County, Minnesota. Here she worked as a law clerk for the Hennepin County district court based out of the city of Minneapolis.

Transcript Summary: In an interview conducted on April 17, 1993, Linda Bellows described her career within the Minnesotan legal system, as well as various qualities of it that she admired or believed could be improved upon. Bellows noted that she had always possessed an interest in practicing law from a young age, and that after attending three years of law school (in addition to four years of undergraduate work in the discipline of philosophy), she successfully passed the Minnesota bar exam. Following this, she spent eight years working as an attorney before transitioning to the role of law clerk within the Hennepin County district court. She preferred working within the court because it allocated her a greater variety of tasks and greater access to all corners of the legal system. Although Bellows noted that she enjoyed her work, she also expressed frustration with certain aspects of the legal system, including frequent shortages of staff, a lack of adequate funding and other resources, and increasingly large caseloads for attorneys to manage.

Interview conducted by Meg Dols

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/4/ [15724]

Biographical Information: Elsie Harrington Berg (November 14, 1907-2000) was born in Swatara, Minnesota. While she was in Iowa, Berg worked for the Sheaffer pen factory. She was married on June 25, 1930 to Fred Berg and lived and farmed in Swatara, Minnesota, where they had five sons, Fred, Ed, Gene, Calvin, Kenneth and two daughters, Catherine and Cora.

Transcript Summary: Berg discussed her family history in Swatara, Minnesota, in Aitkin County, in the early 1900s. Her father worked various jobs, including at a lumber camp, a plow shop and as a farmer. Growing up in the early 1900s, Elsie described walking to school with the other kids in town, along with walking almost everywhere with no vehicle. Berg also discussed the general history of other families that lived in the Swatara area. Along with general history of the area, she briefly discussed natural disasters during her lifetime. Berg reflected on how much the area and country has changed throughout the years. She described how she wrote poetry that was published.

Interviewed by James Robak

County Commisioner, Sauk Rapids, MN. through the 1930s and 1940s. Done for the Benton County Historical Society

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/5/ [15729]

Biographical Information: Bertha Rodeman Brenny (Aug 5, 1906 – May 26, 2001) was born in Graham Township, Benton County Minnesota to Frank and Matilda Walz Rodeman. Bertha attended both St. Cloud State and University of Minnesota where she received her teaching degrees. She was a teacher for 37 years and taught in schools in Foley and Pierz, Minnesota. During her life, Bertha was involved in many churches and institutions in the area, including Gilman Knights of Columbus, Gilman Christian Mothers, Benton County Teachers Association, and 4-H. In 1930, Bertha married Peter Brenny Sr. Peter passed away in 1979. Bertha’s sister, Emma Rodeman (Aug 13, 1908 – November 30, 1989), was born in Mayhew Lake Township, Benton County, Minnesota. She graduated from St. Cloud State in 1947 with a two year degree and a Bachelor of Science degree in 1953. Like her sister Bertha, Emma taught in Minnesota public district schools.

Transcript Summary: In two interviews conducted on July 23 and August 2, 1973 Bertha and Emma Rodeman discussed their experiences of methods of schooling and education both as teachers and pupils as well as the changes in school systems through the 1900s. They recalled how German was the only language they knew until starting school and how they were first introduced to the English language through the alphabet and arithmetic. The sisters described how they went to school with no paper or pencils, no indoor bathrooms, no running water, and how stoves heated classrooms. They also recall how they did not have well equipped libraries until they got to high school at St. Ben’s. They chronicled their time at St. Cloud State, including the Old Main building. Bertha and Emma described public school teaching careers. They talked about the ways education materials were first introduced to students and how textbooks were required by the state during the time as well as supplementary materials consisting of notebooks, pencils, crayons, maps and dictionaries. Bertha remembered during 1950s and 1960s they had film strip machines, recorders, telephones and even overhead projectors equipped in schools.

Interviewed by Thomas Raiche

One tape

Two 60 minute audio cassettes

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/27/ [16065]

Biographical Information: Earl Bukowski was born on November 11, 1919, in Sauk Rapids, Minnesota. Bukowski spent most of his life in Sauk Rapids working as a baker, initially starting out as an assistant to his uncle at 11 years of age. Bukowski ultimately purchased the bakery as an adult. Aside from his primary career as a baker, Bukowski also served in the U.S. Navy during World War II. He supported his community as a volunteer firefighter, a member of the Sauk Rapids Chamber of Commerce, and a justice of the peace, among other roles. Bukowski passed away on May 2, 1999, survived by his wife, four children, ten grandchildren, and six great-grandchildren.

Transcript Summary: In an interview conducted on June 27, 1978, Earl Bukowski recounted his life as a resident of Sauk Rapids, Minnesota. Bukowski noted that he started working in his uncle’s bakery at age 11, in order to help support his family during the Great Depression, and that (with the exception of roughly two years of service during World War II) he continued to bake, eventually purchasing his uncle’s bakery in 1957. Aside from his work as a baker, Bukowski also discussed how he volunteered to support the community of Sauk Rapids in a variety of other ways, including as a firefighter, member of the local chamber of commerce, and as a justice of the peace, among other activities. Additionally, Bukowski spoke about his family, noting that he was married on May 1, 1941. He and his wife raised four children together.

Interview conducted by John LeDoux and Mark Stone

One tape

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/6/ [13654]

Biographical Information: Jerome Burnett was born on September 28, 1926 in St. Cloud to Samuel and Mary Burnett. He attended school in the St. Cloud area, graduating from St. Cloud Cathedral in 1944. After graduation, he joined Marines and served during WW II until 1946. Jerome married to Mildred V. Johnson on June 6, 1950 in St. Cloud. He was an employee and an active union worker for many companies in Minnesota including DeZurik Company, Franklin Manufacturing, Cook and Son Manufacturing. He was also a candidate for the House of Representatives in 1964 and the grand lodge representative for the International Association of Machinists. During his He also served as a labor representative for the governor’s Indian Affairs committee, a member and president of St. Cloud Equal Rights Commission, and a member of St. Cloud Mayor’s tax advisory committee among many others. Jerome passed away on May 15, 2006.

Transcript Summary: In interviews conducted on December 30, 1977, and July 15 1986, Jerome talked about his life in St. Cloud, his professional career attached to many manufacturing companies in Minnesota, and services as a Marine during World War II. He recalled becoming a union member for the Machinists Union and Teamster Union in 1944. He served as an officer, on committees, chairman, vice-president and president for many of the unions he worked for. Jerome discussed how between the 1940s and 1960s that workers were more actively participating in union matters as opposed to today. He talked about the unions that were in St. Cloud including those for granite, railroad, and the building trades.

Interviewed by Calvin Gower and John LeDoux

One 60 minute audio cassette

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/28/ [16066]

Biographical Information: Alice Ziegler Carley and (Ralph) Deane Fischer were both residents of the town of Brook Park, Minnesota. Carley was originally born in Brook Park, but left the community in 1922 to pursue marriage and employment as the (alongside her husband) owner of a telephone company, before she ultimately returned to Brook Park in 1946. Fischer was not originally from Brook Park, but moved into the town in 1915, after which he spent time working as a farmer, construction worker, member of the town school board. He worked ultimately as the town’s postmaster for 21 years, retiring in the mid-1970s. Carley, who was born in 1903, died in 1981 while Fischer, who was born in 1910, died in 2003.

Transcript Summary: In an interview conducted on December 19, 1980, Alice Ziegler Carley and Deane Fischer discussed the history of the town of Brook Park, Minnesota. Carley and Fischer noted that the community was originally called Pokegama, but that its name was changed to Brook Park (named for a creek in close proximity to the town) after much of it was destroyed in the Great Hinckley Fire of 1894. Carley and Fischer said that much of their youth was spent in Brook Park in which the town experienced a great deal of economic and population growth, right up until the start of the Great Depression in 1929. Nevertheless, they also affirmed that the Depression contributed to a decline in the town’s fortunes, from which it has since never fully recovered. Carley and Fischer affirmed that much of this also stemmed from a lack of recreational activities and professional work for young people within Brook Park that caused many of them (including their own children) to move out of town and live elsewhere.

Interview conducted by Calvin Gower and Alan Nielsen

Biographical Information: Helen C. Carter was born on December 29, 1891, in St. Cloud, Minnesota. Carter attended Carleton College for three years and earned a bachelor’s in education. She also attended St. Cloud State and graduated in 1913, where she earned a graduate diploma in teaching. Carter worked for nearly 40 years as an educator at several schools throughout Minnesota between 1919 and 1956, where she taught a variety of subjects, including English, Latin, history, civics, and music. Carter passed away on October 12, 1983.

Transcript Summary: In a pair of interviews conducted on October 5 and 12, 1977, Helen C. Carter discussed her life as an educator within Minnesota. Carter noted that she was born and raised in St. Cloud, where she later she graduated from St. Cloud State in 1931, in addition to three years of studying at Carleton in pursuit of her B. A. in education. Carter also spoke about her nearly 40 year-long tenure (1919-1956) as an educator, in which she recounted working at several schools throughout Minnesota, primarily including St. Cloud Tech High School, and recalled teaching a myriad of different subjects, including history, English, Latin, music, and civics. Lastly, Carter affirmed that she enjoyed her work as an educator, and particularly enjoyed working with high school juniors.

Interview conducted by Calvin Gower

There is no audio.

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/8/ [13655]

Biographical Information: Reuben Dahlstrom was born on December 1, 1902 in Milaca, Minnesota, to Carl John and Augusta Jonsson Dahlstrom. He married Bonna Valentine Wilkes on July 24, 1927. Reuben worked for his father, who was a Milaca shoemaker, and later partnered with Dahlstrom, Helman and Berg Pontiac Garage and Dealership. He began his own auto body repair shop in 1942 in Milaca and worked there until his 1976 retirement. Reuben was a member of many religious institutions including First Church of Christ Scientists and Zurah Shrine Temples in Minneapolis. He was also an active member of Milaca Historical Society and an honorary member of the Milaca Alumni Band. Ruben passed away on December 30, 1999. With wife Bonna, they had four children: David, Peter, John, and James. Bonna Wilkes Dahlstrom was born in Milaca, Minnesota on February 14, 1906 to A.C and Josephine Simon Wilkes. Bonna worked at Mille Lacs County Auditor’s office while also assisting her husband in the family business. She was an active member of Milaca Historical Society, Civic Club, Order of Eastern Star, and First Church of Christ Scientist. Bonna passed away on February 26, 1999.

Transcript Summary: In an interview conducted on February 13, 1978, Reuben and Bonna discussed about their family backgrounds, ancestry, and livelihood. She recounted where their grandparents and parents came from and how they first moved to the Milaca area when it was still a young developing town. Bonna said that her grandparents from her fathers’ side came from New York and her mother’s side came from France, settling in Sunrise near the St. Croix River. Reuben discussed that his parents emigrated from Sweden during the 1890s and he recalled his dad saying that he first came to Milaca in an old pump hand car. He also remembered that his parents could not speak any English at the time. Reuben recalled his childhood being brought up in Milaca and how he and his brothers had to work for his father in his shoe shop. After high school graduation, Reuben explained how he got into automobile business, later owning his own automobile business. He discussed different types of cars they had in 1900s like the 1907 Ford, Imperial, Underslung car and how they were all open cars which were not driven much during winters. Most of the cars as he said were chain drive automobiles. He then recalled the Great Depression and how it affected society during the time, especially in Milaca. Reuben also discussed business during World War II and when the shop was sold to be part of a vocational school.

Interviewed by Cal Gower and John LeDoux.

One tape

Two 60 minute audio cassettes

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/35/ [16067]

Biographical Information: Charles Fournier Dare was born on September 9, 1922, in Elk River, Minnesota. Throughout his life, Dare was closely involved in the newspaper business, attending the School of Journalism in Dunwoody in 1950 before taking over as the publisher and editor of the Sherburne County Star (a newspaper originally created by Dare’s grandfather in 1875 that was later passed on to his father in 1916). Dare also served in the U.S. Navy during World War II. Dare married Sally Brainard and they raised a daughter Jenny Sue. Dare ultimately passed away on December 15, 2008, at the age of 86.

Transcript Summary: In an interview conducted on May 13, 1981, Charles Dare discussed his family and details of his career as a journalist. Dare noted that although he originally aspired to be a mechanic, he ultimately pursued journalism to assist his father with the family’s newspaper Sherburne County Star. At the time of the interview, Dare said the nature of this work shifted over time. Dare credited developments like the growth of suburbs and people’s increased reliance on cars to make long commutes to workplaces elsewhere (such as in Minneapolis and St. Paul) with eroding the local sense of community in towns like Elk River. As such, Dare maintained that these changes contributed to a decline in people’s interest in local affairs. Most were more interested in news relating to “corny” matters like sports and national politics.

Interview conducted by Cal Gower and John Urke

One 60 minute audio cassette

Biographical Information: Kenneth E. Dickinson was the former chief of police for the city of Waite Park, Minnesota. Following four years of service in the U.S. Air Force, he became a police officer in 1970, a position that he held until his retirement in 1999.

Transcript Summary: In an interview conducted on February 26, 1992, Kenneth E. Dickinson discussed his time as a police officer in the city of Waite Park, as well as broad changes within the profession that took place over the course of his career. Dickinson noted that since he began working as a police officer in 1970, new educational standards had been enacted throughout Minnesota, requiring prospective officers to achieve two to four years of college education before entering the field. Likewise, Dickinson also noted that the introduction of many pieces of new technology helped ease law enforcement, including fax machines and more advanced breathalyzers for example. Dickinson affirmed that working in law enforcement was not always easy or pleasant. Yet he enjoyed his job and found it meaningful, asserting that he originally became a police officer in order to help out and protect his community.

Pharmacist and city council member, Foley, MN. Done for the Benton County Historical Society

Two tapes

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/7/ [15726]

Biographical Information: Harold L. Fisher was born on February 25, 1905 in Saint Joseph, Missouri, to Joseph C. Fisher and Minnie Gertrude Seley. His maternal grandparents and great grandparents were originally from Pennsylvania. And his paternal grandparents were from Prague, Bohemia. He married Mabel Johanna Hansen on September 25, 1934. He was a former postmaster (1950-1970) and mayor (1971-1977?) of Royalton, Minnesota. Fisher was involved in the St. Paul Lutheran Church, 4-H, Lutheran Senior Citizens’ Home, St. Otto’s Home and St. Mary’s Villa. He also authored a book entitled The Land Called Morrison, as well as a history of the Royalton post office. With wife Mabel, Fisher had four children – Joan, Bill, Tom, and Conrad. Fisher passed away on December 25, 1984 and is buried in Riverside Cemetery in Royalton, Minnesota.

Transcript Summary: In an interview conducted on March 31, 1978, Harold Fisher discussed his ancestors, especially how his maternal grandparents came from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania by traveling the Erie Canal, Chicago, and then Iowa. They were farmers with 160 acres of land and he talks about how they planted corn it all by hand with their children. And he also mentioned that his paternal grandparents were originally from Prague, Bohemia and came to Iowa during 1856. Fisher discussed his parents and how they moved to Missouri (where he was born), then coming to Minnesota. Harold took pride being born in St. Joseph, Missouri as it was where the Pony Express first started in 1860s. His family bought lands in Rice, Minnesota where they farmed corn. Fisher then recalled how he had to give up those farm lands and many of his assets to the Federal Land Bank during the Great Depression in 1930s. He vividly remembered World War I when 24 year old brother went to serve. Fisher recalled how he wished he was older so he could have joined too. He was the postmaster and mail carrier for Royalton during 1950s and became mayor in 1971. Fisher described how he became interested in history and writing, authoring books entitled History of 100 Years in the Post Office, The Platter River Settlement, and The Land called Morrison. He also talked about the populations and ethnicities around Royalton area and its development as well as the history of Morrison County and its first European settlers. He also touched on local churches, Prohibition, and the effects of the Great Depression. on Royalton.

Interviewed by John LeDoux. Includes two newspaper clippings.

Former mayor of Rice, MN with significant community and business involvement. Discusses farming and business issues of 1930s and 1940s. Done for the Benton County Historical Society

These general oral histories were conducted from 1973 to 1993 predominantly in the late 1970s.  25 of the interviews are centered on the three cities of St. Cloud, Waite Park, and Sauk Rapids, while the remaining interviews are from communities north and east of that region.  Three interviews are from communities west of Duluth.

The people interviewed represent a wide spectrum of occupations including business owners in a variety of fields and farmers.  Journalists, teachers, musicians, peace officers, and medical care givers are also interviewed.  Each interviewee shares experiences from the early 1900s to the time of their interview and all discuss the changes to their community that they have seen in that time.  Many discuss how their parents or grandparents migrated to the United States and then to St. Cloud area, as well as giving family experiences in the area.  Experiences during the world wars, both at home and in the services, are provided, particularly economic effects on agriculture and manufacturing.  In some, experiences with the Civilian Conservation Corps during the Great Depression are also referenced.

Brief biographical and interview notes are given for all participants.  Date of birth and death were given when known using the oral histories, St. Cloud Times obituaries, Google search, or Findagrave.com.

Some interviews were actually transcribed. The typewritten transcripts were keyed into a Word document but have not been checked against the audio. Past experiences has suggested that the transcripts may not be complete. In the meantime, the transcripts are available here as PDFs.

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/30/ [16069]

Biographical Information: Ethel Goven was born near New Ulm Minnesota on September 22, 1897, and moved to St. Cloud with her husband John in 1924, where she resided for the next 59 years. Gen Flanagan was born in Minneapolis in June 1914, and came to St. Cloud in 1942 with her husband who was a serviceman killed during World War II. Gloria Laughlin, alongside Goven and Flanagan, was a member of St. Cloud’s Reading Room Society, and later became president of the organization.

Transcript Summary: In two interviews conducted on March 3 and May 1, 1984, Ethel Goven, Gen Flanagan, and Gloria Laughlin spoke about their lives in St. Cloud and their time as members of St. Cloud’s Reading Room Society. Goven, Flanagan, and Laughlin said that the Reading Room Society was the oldest club for women in Minnesota’s history, as it existed for 119 years at the time of the interview. They asserted that the organization was the “epitome of social life in St. Cloud,” and that aside from holding regular meetings with its core of 55 “active” and additional, typically older “life members,” it also frequently hosted events like dinners and ballroom socials. Additionally, Goven, Flanagan, and Laughlin mentioned that the group maintained close ties with a multitude of other local institutions, such as the St. Cloud Public Library and St. Cloud State University, and that the latter’s President Isabel Lawrence and Dr. Philip Halenbeck were closely associated with the Reading Room Society, among other prominent individuals.

Interview conducted by Cal Gower

One 60 minute audio cassette

One 90 minute audio cassette

https://repository.stcloudstate.edu/gen_oh/36/ [16070]

Biographical Information: Charles Luverne Grafft was born in Watertown, South Dakota, on July 27, 1927, and moved to St. Cloud Minnesota with his family in 1939. Grafft served with the U.S. Navy during World War II. He returned to Minnesota and pursued a career in law enforcement, first as a justice of the peace, later as the Waite Park Police Chief (1971-1979), and lastly as the Stearns County sheriff (1979-1991). Aside from his work in law enforcement, Grafft volunteered with the Boys Scouts, St. Cloud Amateur Radio Club, and American Red Cross. Grafft and his wife Lorraine were married on February 17, 1947, and raised four children together: Joseph, Peggy, Jean, and Richard. Grafft passed away on February 24, 2003, at the age of 75.

Transcript Summary: In an interview conducted on February 27, 1992, Charlie Grafft discussed his life in the St. Cloud area, much of which was spent working within the field of law enforcement. Grafft noted that he was originally just a part-time volunteer with local law enforcement, but eventually worked his way up to the position of Waite Park police chief in 1971 and was later elected as the Stearns County sheriff in 1979, a position that he held until his retirement in 1991. Grafft also spoke about many of the challenges of working in law enforcement, highlighting his own experiences of dealing with shortages of funding for his department, and in receiving little guidance on how to train officers and educate them to properly enforce the law. On the whole, Grafft affirmed that law enforcement institutions in the St. Cloud area were (at the time of this interview) presently in much better shape than when his career started, but also emphasized issues like corruption, drug dealing, and gang membership among young people, would be increasingly challenging and costly for law enforcement to grapple with in the future.

Interview conducted by Kevin Schafer